We do not disclose the exact location of our shoothouse to non-clients for security reasons. If you sign up for a class which involves the shoothouse, we will provide the exact address in a welcome email.
-NO CLIENT FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION ALLOWED IN THE SHOOTHOUSE. No exceptions. If you bring a gun or ammo to the shoothouse, you will be denied entry and not given a refund. Everyone will be pat-down searched prior to the class getting started.
-Client knives/striking weapons/mace/tasers/other potential weapons are not allowed in the shoothouse. If you have a pocketknife or something similar with you, just let us know and you’ll be asked to leave it with the rest of your stuff when you change into your gear.
-Do not strike, attempt to disarm, or otherwise attack the role players during a scenario. We understand that things can get heated, and pushing and shoving may be appropriate responses to certain stimuli, but you should not attempt to use hand to hand martial arts on a role player (such as punching, kicking, knees, elbows, palm strikes, locks, throws, etc). We have other classes to practice martial arts, and we cannot risk injury to students, role players, or instructors. If physical force is used toward role players, disciplinary action (including immediate expulsion from the class without a refund) will be left at the discretion of the instructor staff.
-Instructor commands must be followed at all times. If the stop command is given (usually signaled by an air horn), the scenario is over, full stop. Failure to abide by instructor commands may result in expulsion from the class without a refund.
-Protective equipment must be worn at all times. Removing any part of your protective equipment will result in the scenario being stopped. If you accidentally lose something or it becomes dislodged, it is your obligation to alert staff immediately, who will stop the scenario with a cease fire. You are ultimately responsible for your own safety.
-Scenarios are stressful, and will elevate your heartrate and require you to move quickly around rooms and obstacles. If you have any pre-existing medical condition which may preclude you from safely engaging in high-stress, high-movement activities, you must alert staff prior to registering for a class, and again prior to participating in any scenarios. Clients are again entirely responsible for their own safety in any Threat Scenarios events.
-Hate speech, and abusive/inflammatory language are expressly not allowed, and you may be removed from the class without a refund at the discretion of the instructor. To put this more clearly, if you are a racist, belong to some kind of anti-government militia, are looking for training on how to kill (as opposed to how to defend yourself), are prepping for the fall of society, are a member of any criminal or terrorist group, or behave in a threatening manner towards other students or staff, we do not want you in our classes. We expect our students to conduct themselves in a professional and courteous manner, and will not tolerate behavior to the contrary.
-Students MUST have a valid firearms safety certificate (for shoothouse only training), or show other evidence of firearm ownership (such as by bringing a personal firearm to a live-fire portion of the class, in which case the certificate is not required). This is to show us that you are able to legally own a firearm. If for some reason we discover that you’re prohibited from handling a firearm (any felony status, court order, addicted to narcotics, or any other class prohibited by the California DOJ), you will be ejected from the class immediately and reported to local law enforcement.
-If participating in a live-fire class, clients must bring their own firearm and other associated equipment (as described in the class description). This firearm must function reliably and safely. (Don’t be the guy who brings out that shiny 1911 which malfunctions every 6th round.) If an instructor determines at his/her sole discretion that your equipment cannot function reliably or safely, you may be asked to remove or replace it.
-Live fire events all begin on cold ranges. Do not come in with a holstered firearm (even if you’re a LEO.) Your firearm should be unloaded and boxed.
-Live fire events all follow standard IPSC/USPSA rules when it comes to safe areas, safe gun handling, and the 180 rule (among others). More detail is provided later in the FAQ (“What Do I Need to Know for a Live-Fire Class?”).
-Clients must bring their own ear and eye protection to live-fire range days. We require glasses to completely cover the eyes (preferably wrap around sunglasses). This is because we will be shooting steel, and fragmentation does occur. If at any point your protection fails, alert an instructor who will call an immediate cease-fire.
-Above all, by signing up for a class, clients acknowledge and expressly accept that they understand the risks of shooting a firearm (both live-fire and UTM), and that they are ultimately responsible for their own safety. Clients will be required to sign a waiver to this effect prior to starting any class.
-Bring closed toe shoes and thick socks. All other protective equipment will be provided.
-The floor of the shoothouse is concrete. Standard athletic shoes are fine. You probably won’t get shot in the shoe, so don’t worry too much about damaging your favorite pair. Just bring what you normally would wear.
-Clients will always start upstairs in the shoothouse. We have a comfortable lounge, along with a kitchen, and a restroom dedicated for clients. There will be snacks, beverages, and lunch provided.
-Downstairs is used exclusively for drills/scenarios. You will first enter a staging area with all the UTM firearms, and will be given any props you’ll need. There will be a scenario briefing and equipment check prior to going inside.
-We have a laser-based shooting simulator which contains a variety of drills and scenarios which you can use to fill any downtime in your class.
-It is important to keep things moving during scenarios, so please be ready to go when your name is called.
-Following the scenario/drills, we will have a briefing with all the students upstairs as the shoothouse is prepped for the next scenario/drill.
-If at any point you are uncomfortable, or feel any adverse health effects, please alert an instructor immediately. All efforts will be made to accommodate you. Additionally, we will always offer a full refund for any student who must withdraw for any medical reason.
-Live fire classes will always start with a safety briefing. Please make sure you show up at the designated time.
-We do not rent guns. Bring your own and make sure that it functions properly and safely. If you haven’t shot it in awhile, go to a local range and test it. If your gun doesn’t work, then you’ll be the one holding up the class.
-You will probably be required to bring a holster depending on the type of class. No crossdraw holsters, no shoulder holsters (unless you’re Steve McQueen, James Bond, or in the Secret Service and wearing a suit), no appendix carry holsters, no holsters which cannot safely and securely hold a firearm.
-We follow a strict set of safe gun handling rules (which are standard for all IPSC ranges):
*You should NEVER handle a firearm except under the supervision of an instructor or in a safe area.
*All holstered or boxed firearms must be brought into the range and kept UNLOADED except under the direct supervision of an instructor.
*If you need to holster up, or handle an unloaded gun, you may move to a designed SAFE AREA to do so. Handling of ammunition is NEVER allowed in safe areas, and the gun’s muzzle must be pointed at the berm at all times.
*You will MAKE READY prior to shooting a drill or stage. Until you’re asked to make ready, your gun will be unloaded and holstered with the hammer down.
*Once you’re done shooting a drill or stage, you’ll be asked to UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR, which means to remove the magazine, clear the chamber and show it’s clear.
*Next HAMMER DOWN, HOLSTER by dropping the hammer on an empty chamber.
*Unloaded firearms may only be handled outside of instructor supervision in SAFE AREAs. No ammunition may be handled in safe areas.
*BREAKING THE 180 will result in being ejected from the class. This means never pointing your gun uprange (defined as an invisible line parallel to the berm).
*Keeping your finger in the trigger guard when you’re not engaging targets is not allowed.
*Dropping or losing control of the gun will result in ejection.
*Negligent discharges will result in ejection.
-This is a non-comprehensive list of red flags that we look for when it comes to live fire equipment:
*Strange or super old makes/models of firearms. Our instructors have seen a lot of guns, so if we don’t recognize yours then chances are it probably doesn’t run very well.
*Removed trigger guard (really?).
*Novice shooting a hyper modified gun with a 1.5lb trigger, magwell, crazy recoil spring kit, some enormous “defensive” sight, compensator, and serrations everywhere.
*”Custom 1911″ which has a failure to feed on the first magazine.
*Certain retention holsters. We are especially wary of SERPAs due to the number of accidents we’ve seen with button disengagement.
These are generally things which we hope you’ll bring:
*Friction retention holster. (Even the cheapo kydex Uncle Mikes works.)
*Functional, factory or lightly modified firearm. Trigger (3.5lbs), sights, and grip tape.
*Stiff, sturdy belt which doesn’t flop around when you draw.
*Enough magazines to shoot the drills (at least four).
*Reliable ammunition. It can be reloads. As long as it runs, you’re good.
We strongly believe that marksmanship training and tactics are unique skills to be trained. The former is about hitting targets with the maximum amount of speed and accuracy (while setting up in the best ergonomic position to do so given the conditions). The latter is about using cover, situational awareness, and what to do as a member of a team. Just because you’re good at one doesn’t mean you’ll be good at the other, and your goals will dictate which you practice more. A competitive shooter might want to be able to clear a plate rack from 12 yards in under 2.5 seconds from the draw or burn down an IPSC stage, but not care a single bit about making room entries. A defensive shooter might direct his/her energy towards learning the martial art of shooting, but not care a single bit about pushing the envelope of speed and accuracy, especially as it relates to winning matches.
Ultimately it’s all about what you care to learn, and where you want to spend your time and money. At Threat Scenarios, we respect all types of skills and believe in challenging ourselves to go outside of our comfort zones- whether that’s competing in a match, or hashing it out with UTMs in a shoothouse.
IMPORTANT NOTE: In Live-Fire classes, we strictly enforce the “180 rule” when it comes to pointing a firearm uprange. However, the shoothouse employs 360 degree fields of fire, unless otherwise indicated by an instructor.
Once you have the situation in your mind, and possibly some form of weapon (like a UTM converted firearm), we send you in, and it’s up to you to figure out what to do next. This is not Hogan’s Alley. Targets don’t just pop out for you to shoot. They will react to what you do and what you say.
Each scenario has multiple paths. It’s possible for some scenarios to be solved without any force or violence, or for the very same ones to devolve into massive shootouts. It depends on what YOU do. Use your words and your mind (and your weapon if necessary) to get out of the scenario safely.
Once you’re done, we’ll debrief your decisions with the rest of the group. There is not necessarily a right way and a wrong way to complete a scenario. As an example, if someone holds you up and asks for your wallet, giving him the wallet and walking away is one potential solution. Another may be drawing a firearm. Each person is different and has different priorities, fears, and biases. But being able to critically think about yourself and your plan in context is the takeaway.
“Defensive tactics” generally means sticking to smaller groups and scenarios which a regular person might encounter in daily life. The ability to work and communicate seamlessly with a partner is extremely important, and this will be the focus. Environments may include a home, an office, or a commercial establishment.
Our objective is to train civilians to think about their surroundings and maximize their safety in dangerous situations, not to be offensive “warriors.” Therefore, we will not teach advanced military and police style tactics to civilians.
Pistol Accuracy: 50mm (1.97in) at 10m/11yds – 335fps
Rifle Accuracy: 50mm (1.97in) at 25m/27yds – 375fps
Our converted guns are dedicated to UTM ONLY. Live ammunition cannot be loaded into the chambers of either our pistols or our rifles. Our rifles use bright blue dedicated magazines which are only capable of accepting UTM rounds (live fire rounds WILL NOT FIT in the magazine). Additionally, a UTM conversion means that the firing mechanism of both the rifle and handgun will only operate UTM designed rounds, and cannot fire centerfire ammunition.
Furthermore, all weapons are clearly marked with UTM blue slides and bolts so that they can be recognized at a glance.
We believe that when you are participating in defensive training, there should be a pain penalty for getting shot. Additionally, we don’t want to send anyone home for forgetting to bring the right clothing. As such, we provide all students with full body jumpsuits and a complimentary T-Shirt so that the level of protection is standardized. All you have to bring is closed toe shoes and socks.
So does it hurt? Well yeah, but it’s not that bad. It hits like a paintball (some say a little better, some say a little worse) and will leave a welt or a mark for a couple days. All of our instructors have been shot hundreds of times (mostly by students in crossfire). And honestly, if you’re afraid of getting hit, then don’t get hit!
The only exception to this rule is if you’re taking a class which does not require you to bring your own weapon (scenarios only) and you’re active duty military (you will be required to bring ID). In this case, just email us and explain your situation.
With the above being said, we will do everything we can to accommodate your disability. For more specifics, please contact us.
Please contact us with your requirements and we’ll work with you to set something up.
If you’d like to book a large group, please Contact Us.
We will not honor any promises to “pay the instructor at the class.” Furthermore, we will not “hold a spot for you” while waiting to get paid. This policy exists to prevent no-shows and the all too common “my wife needs a ride to the airport” excuses at the last minute. Additionally, paying online means that you’ve accepted our Liability Waiver and Rules.
CCW Renewals and Additions covered as well.
Frequently Asked Questions
Q) I am confused as this class seems to also be labeled as “Defensive Handgun II and “CCW.”
A) It’s all the same course, but some people take the class for different reasons.
Q) Will this fulfill the requirements for my CCW training?
A) This course meets or exceeds CCW training requirements for many jurisdictions. Please check your local jurisdiction to be sure.
Q) How long is this course?
A) This depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. The full course is a two-day class and approximately 16-hours. However, because of the small class size we usually get through 16-hours worth of material a little faster. See below for other formats for this class.
Q) What are the hours for the class days?
A) Unless otherwise specified, 09:00am – 05:00pm is the norm.
Q) Where are the classes held?
A) Places may vary, however normally both days are in American Canyon, CA. It’s just north of Vallejo and south of Napa.
Q) Who takes this class?
A) Anyone interested in more advanced pistol training and/or those needing to fulfill the requirements for a California Carry Concealed Weapon permit.
Q) This is California, so what are my chances of getting a permit.
A) Surprisingly there are many jurisdictions issuing permits. Our internal study in 2016 showed that it’s feasible to get a permit in at least 40 out of the 58 counties.
Q) What are the requirements to get a CCW?
A) Requirements are listed in the penal code, if you want exact details. Then there are jurisdictional rules as well. Since CA is a “May Issue” state, it is completely up to the jurisdiction (e.g. Sheriff, Chief of Police, etc.). Assuming you can pass a background check to own a firearm, then you must be “of good moral character” and have a “good cause.”
Q) What does “of good moral character” mean?
A) While it can be ambiguous, most jurisdictions will look at your prior record. Things like recent DUIs are considered “endangering the public,” and could be cause to reject your application. Past misdemeanors for petty theft, shows poor moral character. There are more, but this should give you an idea of what they are looking for.
Q) What are examples of good cause?
A) Some JD will accept “self defense,” or “personal protection,” as simply good enough. Many will not accept just that. If you are frequently in situations where you could reasonably in danger, that could be good cause. If you own your own business, carry large amounts of cash or valuables, or have a job where you could be a target, you could be considered for a permit. Real estate agents often have to show properties in more dangerous neighborhoods. Nurses, doctors, medics, and others that have access to drugs might have good cause. If you have the keys and alarm codes to highly targeted businesses (e.g. jewelry store, bank, etc.), you might be eligible. If you’re a judge, inspector, tax collector, or have some other job that could make you a target, that might be sufficient. If you walk, bike, or hike in certain areas, you might also have good cause.
Q) How much can I get away with on my application? Can I sort of make up stuff?
A) The application is not like a resume where people may typically tend to embellish. ANY falsification on your application is very bad in our opinion and could land you in hot water. Some people want to get a fake address in an area where the jurisdiction is better about giving out permits. We advise against this. We can only advise using pristine honesty on your application. Doing otherwise may be illegal and may get you into a lot of trouble.
Q) What are the qualifications to take this class?
A) We like to see people with some pistol shooting experience. Those with less experience will tie up more instructor personal time and that person will not absorb as much of the higher-end material from the class. However, occasionally we have extra instructors to spend more one-on-one time, and if that’s the case, we can take people with less experience. It’s always good to check ahead of time, if you’re less experienced.
Q) Do I take the class before or after I apply for my CCW?
A) That depends on the requirements of the jurisdiction. Most jurisdictions don’t care if it’s before or after your application as long as the class is completed shortly before or after application approval. Typically, they will allow 90 days either way. If in doubt, contact us.
Q) I live in San Francisco where I know I won’t get a permit, but I work in a bad part of Richmond. Can I apply where I work?
A) Technically yes. However, most jurisdictions will require you to at least apply to the jurisdiction where you live. It’s not common to get a permit using your work address.
Q) I was in a class where another student just needed a 4-hour renewal, but took 16 hours. What is the reason for this?
A) You’d have to ask that student, however this is not uncommon. We have an extensive and detailed presentation in the classroom and cover many valuable things that most other trainers don’t offer in their CCW curriculum. Also, our range day is robust, with rapid fire, moving and shooting, engaging multiple threats, and much more. A number of people renewing never got that kind of training initially.
Q) What do I need to participate and how much does it cost.
A) It depends on if you’re participating in 4, 8, or 16 hours. Please see as follows:
1) ALL students will need:
a. Eye protection
b. Ear protection (electronic very strongly recommended)
e. Magazine pouches (holders)
f. Enough magazine to hold about 30 rounds
g. Long pants and closed toed shoes
h. Waist belt
2) Those taking the full 16-hours should bring about 500 rounds. Chances are you will shoot about 350-500 rounds depending on much you want to shoot. This class is $295 (unless listed otherwise).
3) Those taking the 8-hour class are taking the range day only, and will need about 500 rounds. Chances are you will shoot about 350-500 rounds depending on much you want to shoot. This class is $195.
4) Those doing a 4-hour renewal will attend the second day from 01:00pm to 05:00pm. If doing this, we recommend getting there at noon so we can get you setup and you’ll get a free lunch anyway. These students should bring 200-250 rounds, plus 50 rounds per gun to qualify. The cost is $150.
Q) What if I just want to add a handgun to my permit?
A) It’s possible to do that at another time, including during the week. It will consist of taking the qualification test with the new handgun(s). This is $100 for up to two handguns, and $50 per handgun after that. This can also be done on the second day of the regular class, space permitting. Contact us for special arrangements.
Q) What if I don’t have a handgun? Do you have rental equipment?
A) We usually bring extra items to class in general to help someone that has forgotten something or replace something that failed. However, for only $120 we offer a full rental package consisting of:
1) I modern handgun (Glock, Walther, Sig P320, or other upon request)
2) The best electronic ear protection. Hear voices and suppress gunfire.
3) Safety glasses
4) Three magazines
5) Magazine pouches (holders) for two magazines
6) Lula loader (helps to load magazines faster and easier)
7) FREE bonus- 300 rounds of ammunition.
Q) What if I only have “high capacity magazines?” I am leery of getting caught with these.
A) Contrary to popular belief, the law at the time of this writing, does not prohibit you from possessing “high capacity” magazines (those with more than 10 rounds). There is only one restriction on magazines that hold more than 10 rounds and that has to do with “fixed-magazine” semi-automatic RIFLES, not handguns. If you have 12, 15, 17-round magazines or more, please bring them.
Q) I am not sure of the legality of my pistol in CA.
A) We do not inspect firearms for legality. However, if we know your firearm is unsuitable for your permit by our standards, we will advise you to bring get something else. Unacceptable pistols for concealed carry (in our opinion) are Saturday night specials, such as 22 or 25 auto Ravens, Davis, Phoenix Arms, High Point, etc. These guns are not reliable, therefore unsafe for self-protection. We will not sign off Mac 10-type pistols, AR or AK type pistols, Tec-9, Calicos, etc. We don’t necessarily have a problem with any of these types of firearms, but we will not sign off your qualifications sheet with such firearms.
Q) What if my pistol is a registered assault weapon?
A) It depends. If it is of the type(s) listed above, then no, because those are not pistols suitable for concealed carry. If you have an otherwise acceptable pistol that happens to be registered as an assault weapon, we don’t have a problem with it, however we suggest you check with the relevant jurisdiction.
Q) I would like to take the range day and use my rifle. Can I do that?
A) Generally no. However, if you have experience, we may allow rifles of pistol caliber, including but not limited to: .22LR, 380 ACP, 9mm (any), .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .30 Carbine. Other calibers considered, please check with us. You will need a sling for your rifle, and of course, you cannot be signed off to carry your rifle. Also, keep in mind that we occasionally offer a carbine class, which would be similar, but better suited.
Q) Why are your 29 Outdoor Classes listed under “Threat Scenarios?”
A) “Threat Scenarios” is the branding we use for our classes. If you check https://threatscenarios.com you will find we offer a wide variety of other classes as well.
Q) I am confused about the location of the classroom and/or the range?
A) All information is contained in detailed email(s). Please call us if you still need help. Class/Rang-day only phone number is 510-978-GUNS (4867).
Q) Where is this range and how can I shoot there on my own?
A) While as call it “range,” it’s actually privately owned property and is not an actual commercial range, nor is the land open to the public.
-Photos or video are not allowed in the shoothouse space at any time.
-Photos and video may be taken in the participant lounge area between scenarios or training sessions (Novato facility) and may be taken at our live-fire range.
-Photos and video of confidential materials (including, but not limited to, class presentations, lecture, training materials, floorplans, or other proprietary documentation) are not allowed.
-Photos and video of other students are not allowed without their consent.
-Geotagging must be disabled on any photos or video taken at our facility.
If you are unsure of whether or not taking a photo or video is permissible, please ask an instructor first.
Inside one week – full refund less $30 fee.
With less than 24 hours notice, full refund less $50 fee.
If you wish to cancel, please contact us.
Threat Scenarios reserves the right to cancel or reschedule any classes offered at our sole discretion. In the event of a cancelled or rescheduled class, we will attempt to notify students as early as possible, but at least two weeks prior to the class date at the latest. Should a class be cancelled or rescheduled, students will be eligible to receive an immediate full refund for their class fee.
NOTE: THIS FORM MUST BE READ AND SIGNED BEFORE THE PARTICIPANT IS ALLOWED TO TAKE PART IN ANY THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC EVENT.
IN CONSIDERATION of being permitted to participate in any way in the force on force or live-fire training activities of THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC, I acknowledge, appreciate, and agree that:
1. The risk of injury from the activity and weaponry (including, but not limited to UTM converted firearms, blank firing guns, and dulled or prop weapons such as bats and knives) involved in force on force or live-fire training is significant, including the potential for permanent disability and death, and while particular protective equipment and personal discipline will minimize this risk, the risk of serious injury does exist.
2. I KNOWINGLY AND FREELY ASSUME ALL SUCH RISKS, both known and unknown, EVEN IF ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE of those persons released from liability below, and assume full responsibility for my participation.
3. I understand that the activities of force on force and live-fire training are physically and mentally intense. Risks associated with participating in force on force training include, but are not limited to, the risk of injury resulting from possible malfunction of the equipment used in the force on force training and injuries resulting from tripping or falling over obstacles in the force on force training venue. Risks associated with participating in live-fire training include, but are not limited to, the risk of handling a loaded firearm while navigating a course of fire while engaging targets, and the risk of being in a live-fire venue with other students who are training with loaded firearms. In addition, I recognize that the exertion of force on force or live-fire training could result in injury or death. I understand and will comply with all rules and regulations set forth by THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC in the course of this training. If I observe any unusual or unnecessary hazard during my participation, I will bring such to the attention of the nearest THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC representative as soon as practical; and will immediately act to halt the training so that THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC personnel can correct it.
4. I, for myself and on behalf of my heirs, assigns, personal representatives and next of kin, HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC, the owners and lessors of premises used to conduct the force on force or live-fire training, and their officers, officials, agents and/or employees (“Releasees”), WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE, except that which is the result of gross negligence and/or wanton misconduct.
5. I understand and agree that this Release of Liability Agreement covers each and every THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC force on force training or live-fire event in which I participate hereafter.
6. I hereby grant permission to THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC to use my photographic likeness captured during the course of any THREAT SCENARIOS, LLC force on force or live-fire training in all forms and media for advertising, trade, and any other lawful purposes.
7. I understand that by participating in a Threat Scenarios event, I may be provided or be exposed to certain Confidential Information concerning the business or affairs of Threat Scenarios or its affiliates, including without limitation, financial information and reports, business or class plans, design and construction plans, facility location, customer lists, employee data, forecasts, strategies, and all other proprietary business information.
I agree to hold this Confidential Information in the strictest confidence, and will not, without Threat Scenarios express consent, use, divulge, copy, release, sell, loan or otherwise reveal such Confidential Information to others.
I HAVE READ THIS RELEASE OF LIABILITY, CONFIDENTIALITY, AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK AGREEMENT, FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS TERMS, UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN UP SUBSTANTIAL RIGHTS BY SIGNING IT, AND SIGN IT FREELY AND VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT ANY INDUCEMENT.
—BY SIGNING UP FOR A THREAT SCENARIOS CLASS, YOUR CONSENT TO THIS LIABILITY WAIVER IS DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN GIVEN—